Curse

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenrath

Give it up Age, it's not worth it. Reading the majority of these posts, watching how MOST outposts and towns (in Europe anyway) few talk and not many want to team up anymore it's all too obvious at this moment in time the Single Player mentality is prevailing.

Contrary to some opinions, friends list/guildies and "options" is not the real answer to the decline in coop play, because people are at different stages of the game and often using bots themselves, so even less inclination to team up with anyone. So the players who do want to team up are having a harder and harder time of it, and themselves resorting to using bots. Which in turn makes it even more difficult, can you see the pattern here?

Honestly, I don't know why folks didn't just stick to single player games instead of apparently successfully turning PvE into a mostly single player game. Why come to a multiplayer online game in order to play it essentially single player mode? Perhaps that kind of person would have been better off sticking to offline games like Oblivion, or playing offline Quake/UT with bots, Halflife 2, or NWN in single player offline mode and the like. Stick to using MSN/IRC if you need the chatrooms, do the online gaming world a service and stay away, with your bots

Much as I like Nightfall over Factions in terms of content and stuff, I bought GW originally as a multiplayer game, that aspect of which largely is in decline from what I've experienced (not counting PvP, am not interested in that). If this continues, which it has every sign of doing so currently, I'm hoping another decent multiplayer game turns up; am currently looking into NWN2.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

The problem with heros in my mind is that they do more than just give an Assasin a choice, they actively promote uncooperative game play. Every low level mission is almost 100% hero-henched because players are trying to lvl them for later missions. Once you actually get to later missions you can actually find real groups for missions because players aren't lvling their heros.

I think more controllable and customizable hench would be a great idea, but i think heros are one step too far and they are a detriment to online cooperative play. The sooner we get elite zones where ppl cant hench atall(hopefully) the better.

fatherlewis · Nov 08, 2006, 07:09 PM // 19:09

SPOILER ALERT

PUG really are going away and for all the obvious reasons stated in this thread. But for the sake of things people...AT LEAST pug from the Gates of Desolation and onwards. Did them with my Dervish with only heroes...nowhere near as fun as doing it with real live people because somehow...those worms just brings out the best in everybody.

gabrial heart · Nov 08, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Well, I zoned into the gate of madness last night and got about 7 invites and many offers to be paid to help them complete the mission. So i don't tink PUG's are completely dead, accept in the lower level areas.

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

The problem is people dont communicate and so have unrealistic expectations of the players they are with. I'm often the person to initiate discussion of which skills and tactics are required, and ask what others have. I'd say i have far more good PuGs than bad and i attribute this to my own "party building" attitude which it seems alot of ppl in this thread dont have.

If you dont like playing with people then play a single player game instead (i know this is redundant seen as GW is effectively becoming a single player game, but). Why take a multiplayer game and play it like a single player game because you can't garentee yourself a perfect PuG? It's not like every other multiplayer game garentees that. Players throw around rage-quiter, but it sounds to me it's everyone else who is rage-quiting PuGs. So much hostility and bitterness and perhaps due to your own lack of communication and planning.

You get a stinky party then it's perhaps your own fault. My bets are that alot of these people complaining about PuGs and rage-quiters are infact the rage-quiters they complain about.

Prospero · Nov 08, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

The problem with heros in my mind is that they do more than just give an Assasin a choice, they actively promote uncooperative game play.

'Actively promote uncooperative gameplay'? What!? Bad PuGs are the source of uncooperative gameplay, not heroes. And what's with the word 'actively'? No, I'm sorry, but I'm 10/13 in mission master to mission attempt ratio. The 3 non-successes were once at the Cemetary (failed), once at Poghan passage (failed), and once at Moddok Crev. (beat it first try, mastered the second). SO, I see NO reason to start using PuGs.

Honestly, I haven't played missions with a PuG in the past 9 months. I made a decision that it was hench or quit GW. I'll still go with Guildies, but even then I tend to be selective. I don't care if it's antisocial or uncooperative, it's how I like to play. Again online does not mean it must be multiplayer.

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prospero

'Actively promote uncooperative gameplay'? What!? Bad PuGs are the source of uncooperative gameplay, not heroes. And what's with the word 'actively'? No, I'm sorry, but I'm 10/13 in mission master to mission attempt ratio. The 3 non-successes were once at the Cemetary (failed), once at Poghan passage (failed), and once at Moddok Crev. (beat it first try, mastered the second). SO, I see NO reason to start using PuGs.

Honestly, I haven't played missions with a PuG in the past 9 months. I made a decision that it was hench or quit GW. I'll still go with Guildies, but even then I tend to be selective. I don't care if it's antisocial or uncooperative, it's how I like to play. Again online does not mean it must be multiplayer.

I'm not sure what your hit/miss ratio has todo with Heros promoting uncooperative game play. When players are encouraged to play with bots instead of real players like they are now then i consider that promoting uncooperative game play.

You're right it doesnt have to be multiplayer, and the fact it says "cooperative mission" doesnt mean you have to be cooperative, but it certainly gives you the idea. Play how you like, have henchies with all the customization and controls you could want, but when you have to collect and level the hench aswell, this is where the problem is.

People being anti-social arrogant passive-aggressives is an whole other issue, and ofcourse they are those who just like playing alone.

Kit Engel · Nov 08, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

See, I like discussing tactics beforehand with people. I like playing the game with people. But after getting three characters through Nightfall, every time I've PUG'd I've failed the mission on the first one or two attempts, at least, not to mention times when people don't listen and start the mission without people being ready.

Some people don't want to take advice, either. When doing Abaddon's Gate, there was someone that insisted on bringing a monk with... divine healing, heal party, heal other, Jamei's gaze, and no energy management (not even divine spirit, at least; he didn't even have a secondary class). What should I do? If I boot him, I'm taking heroes in his place --- which is what some people here seem to be complaining of. If I take him, I'm rather doomed to failure.

Another terrible situation is when you get multiple leaders in a PUG, and nobody can agree on whose orders to follow. Admittedly, this happens less than the previous situation.

So, no, I'll stick with my heroes. I'll play GW because I like the game, I like the story, I like the mechanics. I don't have to play it multiplayer just because it's online.

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 08:16 PM // 20:16

If ppl are grinding through all the missions for the 3rd time then i can understand why you'd want to take hench. They are reliable and the fun in planning and discussion about the mission is long gone, you just want to get it done.

If it was me i would ask him if he is sure on what he is taking and then probably let him try it. I'd take skills that would make up for areas he is lacking, like party heals and conditiona removal. If it sucks then ask him to change and if he wont then kick him, look for someone else or hench the mission monk and try again.

For Abbadon my primary skills are Archane Echo, LoD, HP and Extinguish. LoD almost constant spamming and everything else usually doesnt matter much. I try take a spot healer monk to make up for my lacking areas. Both times i've attempted Abbadon with noob PuG i've masterd it.

The only problems i face with PuGs is the odd person quiting for whatever reason, or the player that insults everyone else. Most PuGs i have are enjoyable and fun. When we fail i try collaborate and try something new. Some parties fall apart when they fail other better ones endure and succeed.

"Screw you guys, i'm taking hench" - in a Cartman voice.

Prospero · Nov 08, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

No one here has yet made a good argument about how the Heroes feature has ENCOURAGED people to play in more of a single-player mode. It makes doing so easier, but it in NO way indicates that, in some way, it pressures or influences players to play that way. Heores are not the Pied Piper calling all the children away. If people choose Heroes, it's because they'd RATHER play that way. My point is that those who make exclusive use of Heroes weren't going to be joining your PuG anyway.

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prospero

No one here has yet made a good argument about how the Heroes feature has ENCOURAGED people to play in more of a single-player mode. It makes doing so easier, but it in NO way indicates that, in some way, it pressures or influences players to play that way. Heores are not the Pied Piper calling all the children away. If people choose Heroes, it's because they'd RATHER play that way. My point is that those who make exclusive use of Heroes weren't going to be joining your PuG anyway.

New players think they need to level their heros (and they do because you need to take these hench on later quests) so in all the early missions they take their heros to gain XP off the mission to level them. I dont know how clearer i can put it.

As a lvl20 monk i've gone to a lvl6 mission area and offered to party up, not one single player gave me an invite, and the area was packed with hench parties. Me a lvl20 had to hench a damn lvl6 mission to master it alone because _everyone_ else was henching it, and the only reason i can think of is because they wanted the XP for their hench. I've done the same thing on Factions noob island and had parties in seconds. If you have a better explanation i'd be happy to hear it.

crimsonfilms · Nov 08, 2006, 08:33 PM // 20:33

I agree that Heroes has made co-oping less attractive or at least not a forced way to play.

Less waiting time, more control over builds, must level your heroes (since they are required in a lot of missions), etc etc.

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by crimsonfilms

I agree that Heroes has made co-oping less attractive or at least not a forced way to play.

Less waiting time, more control over builds, must level your heroes (since they are required in a lot of missions), etc etc.

"must level heros" is the only thing i have issue with. This is imho the root cause of problem. If all the henches were lvl20 or the same level as the player _and_ customizable then ppl wouldnt need to lvl them and reject real parties, they would just use them sparingly to fill in for missing players.

garethporlest18 · Nov 08, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I still wouldn't fill them in like that. I'd probably still use them over people, cause like I've said many times, things that can think are bad.

Well I do play with one person, but we usually just play by ourselves together, unless one of our friends wants to come with/needs help/is helping us.

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

I still wouldn't fill them in like that. I'd probably still use them over people, cause like I've said many times, things that can think are bad.

Well I do play with one person, but we usually just play by ourselves together, unless one of our friends wants to come with/needs help/is helping us.

That's perfectly fine and nothing should change that, and im sure you'd be equally pissed if everyone who had a full party got special items required for the game and you didn't, because essentially that's what is happening in NF.

I mean this is an RPG game and you're sticking levelable things under players noses, they're going to go level of them out of need and out of worry they will be left out of parties later on. These are the thoughts that went through my mind and so i diligently went solo to level my stupid hench i try never to use.

In other games you actually get rewarded for playing with other people, in NF you get rewarded for playing alone, for shame.

Another idea to solve this would be to only allow players to take one hench.

Gun Pierson · Nov 08, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

I will even go a step further, I would like to see the option implemented to take 7 heroes, not just four.

Loviatar · Nov 08, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

In other games you actually get rewarded for playing with other people, in NF you get rewarded for playing alone, for shame.

Another idea to solve this would be to only allow players to take one hench.

NOTE

at least 8 months before you joined this forum people were already saying (on this and other sites) that they were so sick of the jerks spoiling things even the henchies were a big improvement.

they have been asking for better henchies ever since and the heros are the result.

they are the answer to a jerk community not the cause of it.

3 heros plus regular henchies as needed for me

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

I will even go a step further, I would like to see the option implemented to take 7 heroes, not just four.

Fine take 7, take 16 but remove their leveling aspect. You get what you want, glorified hench and it opens up players to play with others without worrying about having their hench up to x lvl. It should be like the hero armor, their level depends on your own, problem solved.

See what i'm doing, it's called compromise and balance. There's no reason why everyone cant be happy, there's nothing you want that inherantly ruins my fun and likewise.

garethporlest18 · Nov 08, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nemon

That's perfectly fine and nothing should change that, and im sure you'd be equally pissed if everyone who had a full party got special items required for the game and you didn't, because essentially that's what is happening in NF.

I mean this is an RPG game and you're sticking levelable things under players noses, they're going to go level of them out of need and out of worry they will be left out of parties later on. These are the thoughts that went through my mind and so i diligently went solo to level my stupid hench i try never to use.

In other games you actually get rewarded for playing with other people, in NF you get rewarded for playing alone, for shame.

Another idea to solve this would be to only allow players to take one hench.

Well for me I don't do that, I leveled them up exploring areas. I took them on missions as I've stated before I was way up there, blasted through the game there were 1-3 people tops and we were all gunho on beating each other to the endgame.

Now with my other characters, depending on how hard it is for me with the Heroes, I may or may not PUG, if I don't have to I won't. The only reason I really like this game online is because I can talk to people in towns for hours about senseless things and make friends which is what I do when I'm bored (ask Grotto about Lenny) and then to play with those friends and my girl.

Now we failed that Grand Court a couple times and I seen a lot of people there but all with a full party of Heroes probably because they feel the same way a lot of us people do. Once you've been through every mission in the old games more than 3 times, you start to notice a bad PUG trend. I've had way way more than my fair share of it from doing the amount of missions ( had 6 characters) and FoW I did. So for the time being, I like the separation. I've also noticed the people in towns, when most people speak and yes I have witnessed this, they are totally immature and I'm glad I'm not pugging with them. I've ran into maybe 5 decent people in NF so far.

As for them being all level 20. What would you do about the NF characters then? They get those Heroes for that reason, they are low level and you use them to level up throughout the Island. I wouldnt' mind having them all 20 on my lv 20 characters, but I think i'd be kind of unbalanced to have them be lv 20 on new NF characters. Unless you implemented something that made them level with you, instead of having to get them experience. Like you hit lv 10 then they do automatically because you are. That would be fine. I think you stated that somewhere in there though...

Nemon · Nov 08, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

NOTE
at least 8 months before you joined this forum people were already saying (on this and other sites) that they were so sick of the jerks spoiling things even the henchies were a big improvement.

I got news for you, people have been saying that ever since multiplayer games were invented.

The henchies _are_ better, they have good aspects -- customization and more controllability but the other crap they bundled with them, making the whole game about heros is a bad thing as far as anyone wanting to coop, period.

They could tweak it and everyone would be happy and it wouldnt be a community damaging feature.

Gigashadow · Nov 08, 2006, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myrkwid

It's not the heroes/henchies, that are the problem. Not at all. It's the playerbase. I'm playing gw since the betas and with every day the ingame playerbase degenerates. In early days it was real fun to play with strangers and I've met many nice people. Unfortunately those encountered got more and more scarce. The lack of ingame moderation by gamemasters, the lack of a monthly fee and the pretty low difficulty of the game strengthened crappy play and rude behavior even more.
This forced me to stick with guildies to play the game and if not enough are online, teams get filled up with henchman.
I'd love to play with strangers again, but currently it is a far inferior playing experience.

Instead of complaining about not finding a PuG, what about searching for a guild to play with? The game is called "Guild Wars" and not "PuG Wars" after all. Maybe enforcing a minimum size for guilds and requiring them to play the game might be a way to be considered to patch the broken ingame community.

In-game moderation isn't something you are likely to see, as it's expensive.

What *would* work is having some sort of accountability (perhaps some sort of reputation system), so that players police themselves when they realise it is against their best interests to act like asses.